OK I'll be the first to admit that I am not the most rigorous trainer, as is evidenced by my inability to crack 4 hours in multiple attempts the last 2 years. @$#@$#$#@@$#

I'm not terribly bummed, as I know I could do more non-running things (like eat better and not drink like a fish a day or 2 before a race), but I'm also stubborn and not a "die hard" runner like many of you that I find amazing.

WITH THAT SAID...I've recently mixed up my training for my next race to try to improve:

Old: 3 runs a week, typically 2x10-11.5 miles mid week, 13-18 on the weekends, all at basically a clip slightly faster than goal time - big weeks were 40-41 miles.

New: Just started, so miles are a little lower, but this week for example - 14 on Sun. at 8:56, 7.5 on Tues. @ 8:25 (mill, steady pace, pseudo recovery run), Wed. 4.1ish 3x.6 hill repeats at 80+% perceived effort, with .6 recoveries, 1 mile warm up and a small hill at the end to my house, Thurs. on the mill again, 9 miles at 8:25, pseudo Fartlek, bumping pace over the last 3 miles to 8 mpm by the end. 34.5 for the week.

So my questions are:

Does this seem to be a reasonable schedule/order of workouts - I plan on steadily increasing miles over the weeks to come and I don't have time for additional days. Given my time constraints, any modifications to the daily runs?

How long do people typically get heavy legged on day 3 of 3 days in a row? I could have pushed more last night, but I'm also very conservative, and would be harassed beyond belief if I got injured.

Anywho...BLAH BLH BLAH - any insight is appreciated.

Jack, since you asked....

IMO too many of your miles are still at roughly the same pace. I have come to realize, one of the main contributing factors to my achieving my goal time is that my workouts were at target times separated by 15 seconds, over a wide range, from 6:45 to 8:45 - 12 different workouts in all (they're listed on the McMillan Running Calculator). So, I had workouts run at 6:45 - 7:00, 7:00 to 7:15, etc. Physiologically, that strengthened all of the running muscles evenly, not overusing some muscles and underdeveloping others.

I described it this morning as sort of the inverse of a race car driver - they will actually lose hearing at the specific frequency of the engine in their car, because of the prolonged exposure to that frequency, They don't lose their hearing entirely, just that specific frequency.

IMO the focus on miles and not diversity of training in your old plan may have contributed to your inability to break through - you were training the same muscles over and over and over again.

But, what the hell do I know, I've run one marathon!

Thanks Martin - I coudln't agree more. I'm just incredibly boring, and have been "taught" to just get out and run - can't teach an old dog, or the son of an old dog!

I'm thankful to add something new, and would be willing to mix it up even more. I'm just worried if I add more quality workouts at the expense of quantity, I'll drop my miles too much given my time constraints. At this point of my life (career, family and all around laziness and excuse making ability), I can't see doing more than 4x/week.

Would experts suggest changing the "style" of my 2 non-hill midweek runs? To...?

...a mix of Steady State runs, Tempo Runs, Tempo Intervals, Cruise Intervals, Progression Runs and Speed Workouts. See McMillan Running Calculator for times, and McMillan's Six Step Training System - Step # 2: The Four Key Training Zones - Endurance, Stamina, Speed & Sprint for the science.

And, as for the miles, remember, I averaged 3.5 workouts a week, 35 miles a week. Yes, I wish I had done 40 to 45, but I couldn't because of A) life, and B) injury. But I still BQ'd!

Thank you sir - didn't not realize your mileage was that low! That's amazing. What were your big weeks?

BTW, you're running FREAK with your BQ with those miles! All the more impressive. If I recall, though, you had a 4 year plan (which, BTW, is how long I've been training also).

OK, 2 things - first I must have ADD or something (or perhaps because I'm of the Atari generation) because I jumped right ahead to the build a plan section. Science be damned, just show me how to get there.

I always find programs like that intimidating, as the sample plan is for a 10k and the weekly miles are like 60+/-! WTF?

Anywho, I will DEFINATELY sit down and digest the content of that site soon - thanks V Dub.

Two years. I started base building in October 2005, ran on a treadmill for about 6 months while also making dietary changes, and lost 25 lbs. Then I switched over to predominantly strength training (in a very specific way that in essence eliminated the need to do cardio work while stil buildign base). In April I started running, 17 miles a week. I started marathon training in June, ran 27 miles in one week, and missed the next 5 weeks. Starting in late July I completed my training, 10.5 weeks at 35 a week. Tops was 49.5, because I had two long runs in one calendar week (Sunday and Saturday).

Appreciate the "freak" comment, but I don't concur. I think the science really helped me to shortcut the training cycle, to achieve in 6 very moderate mileage months what would have taken 2 years without an aggressive training plan.

Well, the results make for a VERY compelling arguement, freak or not!

One way to keep variety is to change the type of quality runs.  Rotate between tempo runs, 800's, mile repeats, hill repeats, fartleks, etc. Scientifically, those runs are all quite different, so varying them will help stimulate different kinds of improvements.

I would still keep your long run, and another mid-week run (what you called the steady-state/pseudo recovery).  Those are predominately aerobic workouts.  Then with the other 2 workouts, you can mix it up.

Thanks Dave - I'm finally pulling my head out of the sand. I've been, over the last 30 years, beaten into thinking LSDs are the way to go. This is all relatively new to me - spcecific training runs that is.

My previous concern has been to get to the race, and finish, healthy, and it's worked out fine. But I think that I'm finally willing to (slowly) "run" on/to the wild side, and grow as a runner. So I say now.

Jack

I had the same advice from my running coach when I first started getting advice on an inability to improve--too many miles at a similar blah blah pace.  The work I have done with her has divided the training into different phases with workouts like intervals, hill work, base runs, fartleks etc with widely different paces and strategies.  Each of these is designed to build a different feature into my fitness.

An interesting read for you would be the Pfitzinger books--the Marathon one for Advanced Runners and the Road Racing book for serious runners (Dave-O was the reason I looked at them after following his blog).

Whilst some of the programs are high mileage there are some excellent chapters on how to design runs specifically to improve lactate threshold, VO2max, etc etc. Once you read this you will find a light will go off in your head.  I really like the Road Racing book which shows plans for running 5K to Marathon distances.

Good luck

Stephen

Thanks again all - sounds like "Lobo" and I are of the same old-school thought process.

I look forward to using the strategies mentioned that work for me - great thoughts from all.

To follow on to Hal - I said "assume" I was heavy legged simply because I'm not yet used to 3 days in a row. Historically, I would run on TU/TH. I am thinking the WED added run requires some physical getting used to.

What are the constraints on your 4 days per week?  If you could arrange a schedule with no more than two days in a row and only a single day off between runs, I think that would be preferable, since you can go harder on your 4 days by using the off days as recovery.

If you must have three consecutive days of running, I would tend to make the first and third decidedly harder days and the middle day a recovery run.  My tendency has been to use make Tuesday my hardest run (fastest paces) of the week, Wednesday a recovery day (lower mileage, very easy pace), and Thursday a sort-of-long run day.

Thanks Mark - my wife runs also, so she goes out M/W, I have historically done T/T for the mid week. We're both lame and run on the 'mill for the mid week runs (either too dark in the winter or too hot in the summer - although pre-mill opwner I had no troubles running in the dark - just spoiled now?). My most recent W run fit well for a one day, hill repeat, get outside sort of run. Given what you say I'll have to consider my scheduling options.

I'd be interested in hearing what you do and if it works.